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Kerkythea Rendering System • View topic - Fog and... is Kerkythea an architecture oriented renderer?
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Fog and... is Kerkythea an architecture oriented renderer?

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Extremefatalist

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Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:23 pm

Fog and... is Kerkythea an architecture oriented renderer?

Image

Image

Those images are the result of some experimentation with the ‘fog’ of Kerkythea. The terrain and the orbiting moons are made roughly in Wings just for the sake of experimenting in Kerkythea. The rendering with the coloured fog needed an unjustifiable amount of time for achieving the needed colour, using the absorption settings. And although I tried to pout a cloudy background even the smallest amount of fog hindered it from being viewed. As it is clearly evident in the images the fog (or haze) is crucial when there is the need of conveying the sense of depth and distance in very vast outdoor scenery, things that can not be achieved with dof or other kind of features. Fog in those cases is the most elementary way of suggesting such a thing. I mean suggesting the presence of a real atomosphere, something that in recent times is called ‘spectral atmosphere’ and there is a general tendency to implement it as a feature (in Vue 6, for example, it is posssible to see even the Sun rays in atmosphere). Even the much older versions of nearly all, commercial or not, apps have a most simple way of putting a desired colour on fog. Just you put the intensity of fog and pick a colour for it from a color palette. It is so easy. Kerkythea although a superb , as to its rendering abilities, renderer has not such a simple way of putting some color to its fog yet. It is something which arouses some questions regarding its orientation as a renderer, indeed.

Is it mere coincidence that the vast majority of its users have as a modeler Sketchup? Is it in chance only that in its forums’ galleries the architectural (and mostly the indoor) renderings are nearly the only kind of renderings you can meet? Is it so coincidental that fantasy, cartooning (I do mean it not as a kind of non photorealistic rendering but as a kind of content), terrain and organic modelling requiring scenes are nearly totally absent? Look at the case of Silo, for example, despite the fact that there is already a Kerkythea exporter for it the amount of Silo users using Kerkythea is so small. There must be a reason to all this.

It is not a bad thing to have a great architectural renderer, no doubt. But is Kerkythea targeted towards such an end? Personally, all that I see, in recent times, makes me think so: it is a renderer architectually oriented, so it gathers architects in its forums and the architects consider it very natural to keep it in the very concrete direction of their specific interest area. A hermetic circle feeding itself, shortly said. Ghianni, I know that you see it in a ‘democratic’ way, it is the opinion of the majority which counts for you but let say that this is a democracy of architects (and maybe of car designers too), as it seems.

And, finally, of course you have the right to do things freely according your own joy, after all it is a free app. That is without the slightest doubt so but let say here, even if only for a friendly conversations’ sake, a good whole purpose renderer can do good architectural renderings but a solely architectural renderer, even of a very high quality, can not do all purpose renderings.
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ToMasz

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Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:50 pm

You won't believe but I was very happy when I saw your renders. Although I am an architect I thought: 'Thanks God! No architectural render! '

We architects and SU users appreciate vey much how easy KT is in use. I think it has happened because SU has very good exporter :wink: :lol:

Where are those Silo users - they are not involved at all. I was asking myself.. If Giannis would add skp file support (SU) to the KT we would have hundreds of users coming from this direction. SIA has been added few months ago... I haven't seen many renderings modeled in Silo.

Is KT an architectural render cos it has a nort point at the bottom?? Simply the architects really care and are involved very much.

What cannot be rendered in KT? What features are required for non-architectural renderings? ...

Tomasz
Last edited by ToMasz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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giannis

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Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:54 pm

Re: Fog and... is Kerkythea an architecture oriented rendere

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Extremefatalist

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Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:38 pm

So unjust?...

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giannis

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Post Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:28 am

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mabrown

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Post Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:43 am

I have hesitated posting a wish list myself because I have been waiting to see what KT2007 can do and because I know how hard Giannis and his band of helpers have been working on this. I also feel a bit reluctant to ask for things to be included in what is already such an excellent and free renderer.

That said, there are some things I would love to see added. Would it be possible at some future time to include some sort of plugin system for KT? My wishes have less to do with the renderer (which I already think is great and which Giannis and the KT team have well in hand without my suggestions) than it has to do with applying post process effects in a way which can take into account the scene geometry. In particular, I'd love to be able to apply particle effects, and I think that a particle plugin might make this possible.

I have tried adding particles as imported geometry from trueSpace (using the trueSpace "trueParticles" feature.) This has been less than a success. In trueSpace there is another particle system called "PrimalParticles" which doesn't create actual geometry but instead knows where in 3d space a particle is meant to be and applies the particles as a post process effect to the render, using scaled and positioned bitmaps. Because it knows where the objects are in relation to the particles, it knows what to do with the bitmaps in order that they appear either in front of or behind the objects in the scene. These "particles" don't cast shadows of course, but for many things they are really effective and very fast because they are not actually being rendered.

I'm thinking that perhaps, a plugin system might permit Giannis to maintain the core app, with others contributing additions via the plugin system. Alternatively, perhaps scripting could be implemented in Python or something similar?

Hope my ramblimgs weren't too off the wall :D

Mark
Sempron 64 3000+, 1GB DDR 400
trueSpace 6.6 (modeller), Kerkythea (renderer)
<<

Fletch

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Post Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:07 am

Wow... will you create a tutorial for us on how to do those great renders in KT??! I can imagine the render times were umm... not short ;)

Well, as Extremefatalist knows, I'm a Vue user of no little experience. Although I'm an architectural designer by trade, my personal art might surprise you ;) I'm also a fan of the more 'artistic' or 'fantastic' genres. I have too many dragon books to count, and I'd love to do a rendering based on some Raymond E. Feist novels.

I guess, to someone who is not a SU user, it would appear KT is focused on Architects. I've noticed some amazing models done in SU, and they are not by architects... and they generally get a lot more 'appreciation' from the forum visitors.

What KT needs are more people like you, ExtremeFatalist, that know what they are doing, and can implement KT's power in a more fantastical fashion. When good renders are made that way, it will draw more fantasy-style, tune-style users. Though, I can personally do without all the nudity I see on Renderosity (one reason I don't contribute there more often)

I will say that if V6i works so well with it's God-rays and atmospheres and veg. and landscapes, why does KT need to do this too? KT is really Giannis' personal exploration studying his passion for mathematical rendering methods. (It just so happens it's the best free app. for rendering Architecture out of SketchUP... unintentional by him - happy for me!)

I, too, think the mabrown's plugin idea is a good one. It could get Giannis some help; by having others filling some of the wish list items for him. But then, I'm no programmer, as Tomasz and Giannis know, and so I'd be of little help there. My fun is in hitting the render button and seeing what's going to come out... my fun is not found in typing nonsensicle phrases of code together and hoping something will come out ;) I certainly enjoy testing and using them, though!


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notareal

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Post Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:50 am

I have some plans to try rendering some scene with Kerkythea. Fog will play a crucial role in that. My interest for Kerkythea did come from the need to find how a planned skylight and natural light would work in my future house. Any new ways that let one play better with the light will definedly interest me.
<<

Extremefatalist

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Post Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:02 am

The hermits' hut...

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giannis

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Post Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:14 am

Dimitri,

first of all, please know how much i appreciate your help and even the time
you put to write these lengthy posts.

ofcourse, i'd love to see all these features becoming available in kt. One thing
though that i don't want to consume myself, is to invest indefinite time on
the user interface side. That was not my purpose when i started the project,
and looking back now, i am surprised that the app evoluted also on the UI side
(perhaps not completely user-friendly, but at least user accessible).

Remember when i started it, that we had discussions about making a simple
staging application with a very plain GUI (thus 1.1 version was very simplistic)
but with a good renderer. This might be negative for some, but i always put
higher priority to a task involving pure rendering, rather than making a GUI
task (and of course that's why KT renders better than it looks or sounds :lol:).

On the other hand, applications like Vue or Bryce invest very much on the GUI
side to make it look like a game, as you're saying. For KT the GUI side just...
happened! Although i like myself very much the way
that KT can stand as alone without being used as a plugin on a specific modeler.

That said, after next release there will be a poll about most wanted features.
giannis
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Extremefatalist

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Post Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:32 pm

Features...

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Fletch

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Post Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:02 am

:!:
Patrick mentioned somewhere that in order to pick your fog color using absorption, you must choose the color opposite on the color wheel from the color you want the fog to be. That was good to know.


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Extremefatalist

KT-GrandMaster

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Post Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:27 am

Even so...

Fletch I know it but even so it is difficult to achieve just the color you want. To find the exact opposite color by itself is very time consuming. Anyway I have discussed it with Ghiannis and he agrees that the best is to have some way to apply directly the fog's color from a color palette. He said that he will have it in mind.
<<

clipi

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Post Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:03 am

Well I realy think that the GUI is the one thing that make KT what it is..
Giannis do you realy think that we would have so many SU user using KT with out the GUI? No way!. Of course the render quality and speed are contributing factor no doubt, but the GUI was fundamental to push us forward.

You perfectly know that there are so many console and java applications render engine out there (Toxic, Redqueen render, Aqsis. etc) but the learning curve for and the setting time of scene make it so inaccesible to many users.

Now Vue, Bryce, and many other have in my opinion "extremely" fancy GUI which I belive slow down performance, and made them look like a game as you said. So I really like to see and envolving GUI in KT but not to those extreme. I realy admire the way that SILO is handling it, simple, customizable and yet.. very small aplication that is visualy very profesional.

One thing that the artitisc oriented guys should know is that in the current releases of KT the emphasis was on Unbiased rendering. Most of the participating media features requested are hard to implement in Unbiased render, in fact there is no commercial application that I know of that support them.. including Maxwell and Fry render. Altough posible to do, as it is shown in the literature it might take time. So once the core of MTL is entirely unbiased and efficient, we could move back to implement
those features in Photon mapping. Perhaps due to the unique multiple rendering system support of KT we could even implement Hybrid rendering that is combine the accuary of MTL with the advantages of Photon mapping. So that one pass could be based on MTL and the Participating media could be render in Photon mapping in a second pass.

Perhaps the idea of a plugable KT would be great since third party developer can write their favorite feature. Unfortunately the node editor was one of those modules that we still have to find somebody interested in developing.
<<

Extremefatalist

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Post Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:54 pm

"extremely"?...

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